The Horizontal Dimension of Personal Breakthroughs – John Piper AGAIN We Agree – Cue Music

The Horizontal Dimension of Personal Breakthroughs
September 1, 2010 | By: Tyler Kenney | Category: Commentary, DG Resources

This is the third and final video John Piper made before his leave. It is about experiencing spiritual breakthroughs through the gifts of other believers. (See the first one on justification and the second one on loving others.) It ends with some implications for how we do small groups.

Scroll down to read an edited transcript of the video.

The following is an edited transcript of the video.

I’ve been thinking a lot recently about relationships and about the way you being gifted one way and me being gifted another way relates to answers in prayer, or non-answers in prayer, or breakthroughs in struggles in life, or non-breakthroughs.

Here’s what I’m thinking, and I just offer this to you to think about: suppose you’ve been praying about an issue in your life, say some intractable sin that doesn’t seem to go away. You don’t get the victory that you think you should have. You keep fighting it and that’s an evidence that you’re born again. And that’s good, because none of us is without sin, and we have an Advocate and so we fight on.

But you’d like to see more victory. You’ve been praying for years and things haven’t changed.

Now we think about possible reasons why God doesn’t give answers, and sometimes we think of timing: “Well it’s just not the time yet. He’s storing all my prayers up in a bottle. He’s going to pour the prayers out in due time. And so the time will come.”

And we have Joseph in the Bible who, no doubt, for 13 years was praying, “Lord, why was I sold into slavery? Why has it taken 13 years for me to discover the reason for all this pain in my life?” Then suddenly he discovers that he is going to be vice president of Egypt, he’s going to save his family from starvation, he’s going to be the heir of the Messiah—and now it all makes sense! But in those 13 years it didn’t.

But could it be that there are other reasons besides timing issues for why we don’t get certain victories in answer to prayer? Here’s the new idea. I’m sure its not new to everybody, but its been fresh to me.

(SHEL: John’s reformed theology has blinded him perhaps to this self-limitation of God and God’s dynamic interaction through other believers?? Well at least he values the Word enough to come around!)

What if God has given a gift to another person in your small group or in the church, a gift of healing, or discernment, or knowledge, or miracles (I’m taking the list from 1 Corinthians 12)? You’ve been struggling with something. It could be physical. It could be psychological. It could be spiritual. It could be sin. Or it could be non-moral. And you’re not getting anywhere. Could it be that God has a gift out there for you? And the gift is supposed to come not directly, vertically, in answer to your prayer in your little private room, “Lord fix me right now,” but rather it’s supposed to come through another person?

Because I can’t think of any reason why God would create such a thing as spiritual gifts in the church if that were not the case. There are gifts of knowledge, discernment, miracles, faith, and healing that he means for you to have, but somebody else has the gift and you’re not asking for the gift.

The implication is that in our small groups we’re just really honest and we confess, “You know, I’ve been praying about this issue for a long time and God has seen it fit to this point not to give me the answer. And I’m just wondering that maybe he is waiting till I humble myself and come to you and say, ‘Would you pray for me and ask God whether you might have the gift of healing or the gift of the knowledge I need? Or the gift of faith, or whatever that will get a breakthrough for me?’”

So I just commend to you to reread 1 Corinthians 12-14 and think about the horizontal dimension of personal breakthroughs. God created a church! He didn’t just create a series of individuals who go vertical with him and never take that vertical gifting, power, love, insight, and faith and bend it out horizontally to touch other people.

Lets grow together in this. Let’s avail ourselves of miracles, power, faith, knowledge, and discernment from others that God may have for us but we have not felt because we have not gone to the other people in a kind of community relationship or small group and asked.

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The Dangerous Pursuit of “Cool”

The Dangerous Pursuit of “Cool”

Why are evangelical pastors relentlessly seeking to be cultural insiders?

by Brett McCracken

At various times in my evangelical youth group upbringing, I remember looking at youth pastors or church leaders and feeling either endeared (by how nerdy and yet believable they were) or repulsed (by how phony their attempts to be “culturally relevant” often seemed). Looking back, it’s very clear to me that the teachers and leaders I most respected and learned from were not the ones who were trying to be “cool,” but rather the ones who were honest about who they were and willing to learn about who I was.

But I don’t begrudge any youth pastor for trying to be cool. We all try to be cool. We all want to be insiders rather than outsiders. We want to be “in the know” rather than “out of the loop.” It’s a natural human tendency, as basic as our drive to want love or to conquer something. And because the temptation is so constant, it’s easy to take this pursuit-of-cool mindset for granted and not see it for the negative, does-more-harm-than-good endeavor that it often is.

In his lecture “The Inner Ring,” delivered to university students in 1944, C.S. Lewis described this pursuit of cool as being the desire to be in the “inner ring.” He spoke about the dangers of letting ourselves fall prey to the allure of the “inner ring” for the sake of being an insider, noting that “in many men’s lives at all periods between infancy and extreme old age, one of the most dominant elements is the desire to be inside the local Ring and the terror of being left outside.”

It’s not that what’s inside of inner rings is necessarily bad, Lewis is careful to point out. Rather, the problem is that the inner ring desire is often not as much for the good things that made the inner ring cool in the first place, but rather for the “delicious sense of secret intimacy” that comes with being on the inside.

Unfortunately, this motivation—to be an “inner ringer”—is widespread in the evangelical church today. So many pastors, youth pastors, and church leaders are terrified of being excluded or left behind. They want to be relevant. Do they have the right music on their iPods? Do they keep up with shows like Mad Men? Do they own a pair of Clarks Desert Boots? It’s so often just a game of catch up, of frantically maneuvering to be in the inner rings of culture and fashion rather than the dreaded periphery, where no 15-year-old churchgoer would ever be attracted, right?

Are you a wannabe cool pastor, reading all the right magazines and resources to stay up on the latest trends, or are you truly seeking to understand and appreciate what makes trends trendy in the first place? Churches today that are developing arts or film ministries, for example, should ask themselves: Do they really value the arts and film for their own sake? Or is it mostly a means to a “relevant church” end?

In McCracken’s second post, coming soon, he outlines the difference between cultivating authentic taste rather then mimicking what’s cool.

—Brett McCracken is author of Hipster Christianity: When Church and Cool Collide (Baker Books).

Posted in Emerging What? | Leave a comment

FYI Not all that is conservative politically is also conservative theologically.

In Evangelical Christianity a great concern about becoming too Liberal, but not too conservative.

Dr. Tom Wright an great theological voice in orthodox Christianity today. IN the UK conservative christians theologically tend to be more liberal politically.

This is a great – GO DEEPER talk…

Not all that is conservative politically IS NOT conservative theologically.

Posted in "o"rthodoxy | Leave a comment

A Response to Madville – Atheism is MORE of a Faith than Theism – Convert to Agnosticism…a MUCH better position

Shel: I’ve always tried to convert my Atheist (a form of secular-humanist religion – see article below) friends (those with ultimate faith in secular-humanism) to a more humble and real agnosticism. That anyone can actually still hold all the enlightenment based secular-humanist articles of faith in light of the last 150 years amazes me – OH yes that’s what we believers call “blind faith” instead of Christian “reasoned faith” or “probabilistic faith.”

In fact it take MUCH more of the blind faith in humans than authentically following the life and teachings of Jesus.

An Agnostic Manifesto
At least we know what we don’t know
.

By Ron Rosenbaum

Posted Monday, June 28, 2010, at 2:03 PM ET

Let’s get one thing straight: Agnosticism is not some kind of weak-tea atheism. Agnosticism is not atheism or theism. It is radical skepticism, doubt in the possibility of certainty, opposition to the unwarranted certainties that atheism and theism offer.

Agnostics have mostly been depicted as doubters of religious belief, but recently, with the rise of the “New Atheism”—the high-profile denunciations of religion in best-sellers from scientists such as Richard Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, and polemicists, such as my colleague Christopher Hitchens—I believe it’s important to define a distinct identity for agnosticism, to hold it apart from the certitudes of both theism and atheism.

I would not go so far as to argue that there’s a “new agnosticism” on the rise. But I think it’s time for a new agnosticism, one that takes on the New Atheists. Indeed agnostics see atheism as “a theism”—as much a faith-based creed as the most orthodox of the religious variety.

Faith-based atheism? Yes, alas. Atheists display a credulous and childlike faith, worship a certainty as yet unsupported by evidence—the certainty that they can or will be able to explain how and why the universe came into existence. (And some of them can behave as intolerantly to heretics who deviate from their unproven orthodoxy as the most unbending religious Inquisitor.)

Faced with the fundamental question: “Why is there something rather than nothing?” atheists have faith that science will tell us eventually. Most seem never to consider that it may well be a philosophic, logical impossibility for something to create itself from nothing. But the question presents a fundamental mystery that has bedeviled (so to speak) philosophers and theologians from Aristotle to Aquinas. Recently scientists have tried to answer it with theories of “multiverses” and “vacuums filled with quantum potentialities,” none of which strikes me as persuasive. (For a review of the centrality, and insolubility so far, of the something-from-nothing question, I recommend this podcast interview with Jim Holt, who is writing a book on the subject.)

Having recently spent two weeks in Cambridge (the one in the United Kingdom) on a Templeton-Cambridge Fellowship, being lectured to by believers and nonbelievers, I found myself feeling more than anything unconvinced by certainties on either side. And feeling the need for solidarity and identity with other doubters. Thus my call for a revivified agnosticism. Our T-shirt will read: I just don’t know. (I should probably say here that I still consider myself Jewish in everything but the believing in God part, which, I’ll admit, others may take exception to.)

Let me make clear that I accept most of the New Atheist’s criticism of religious bad behavior over the centuries, and of theology itself. I just don’t accept turning science into a new religion until it can show it has all the answers, which it hasn’t, and probably never will.

Atheists have no evidence—and certainly no proof!—that science will ever solve the question of why there is something rather than nothing. Just because other difficult-seeming problems have been solved does not mean all difficult problems will always be solved. And so atheists really exist on the same superstitious plane as Thomas Aquinas, who tried to prove by logic the possibility of creation “ex nihilo” (from nothing). His eventual explanation entailed a Supreme Being standing outside of time and space somehow endowing it with existence (and interfering once in a while) without explaining what caused this source of “uncaused causation” to be created in the first place.

This is—or should be—grade-school stuff, but many of the New Atheists seemed to have stopped thinking since their early grade-school science-fair triumphs. I’m thinking in particular here of the ones who like to call themselves “the brights.” (Or have they given up on that comically unfortunate term?) The “brights” seem like rather dim bulbs when it comes to this question. It’s amazing how the New Atheists boastfully stride over this pons asinorum as if it weren’t there.

You know about the pons asinorum, right? The so-called “bridge of asses” described by medieval scholars? Initially it referred to Euclid’s Fifth Theorem, the one in which geometry really gets difficult and the sheep are separated from the asses among students, and the asses can’t get across the bridge at all. Since then the phrase has been applied to any difficult theorem that the asses can’t comprehend. And when it comes to the question of why is there something rather than nothing, the “New Atheists” still can’t get their asses over the bridge, although many of them are too ignorant to realize that. This sort of ignorance, a condition called “anosognosia,” which my friend Errol Morris is exploring in depth on his New York Times blog, means you don’t know what you don’t know. Or you don’t know how stupid you are.

In fact, I challenge any atheist, New or old, to send me their answer to the question: “Why is there something rather than nothing?” I can’t wait for the evasions to pour forth. Or even the evidence that this question ever could be answered by science and logic.

Alas, agnostics still suffer from association with atheists by theists, and with theists by atheists. So let us be more precise about what agnostics are and aren’t. They aren’t disguised creationists. In fact, the term agnostic was coined in 1869 by one of Darwin’s most fervent followers, Thomas Henry Huxley, famously known as “Darwin’s bulldog” for his defense of evolutionary theory. Here’s how he defined his agnosticism:

This principle may be stated in various ways but they all amount to this: that it is wrong for a man to say that he is certain of the objective truth of any proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty.

Huxley originally defined his agnosticism against the claims of religion, but it also applies to the claims of science in its know-it-all mode. I should point out that I accept all that science has proven with evidence and falsifiable hypotheses but don’t believe there is evidence or falsifiable certitude that science can prove or disprove everything. Agnosticism doesn’t contend there are no certainties; it simply resists unwarranted untested or untestable certainties.

Agnosticism doesn’t fear uncertainty. It doesn’t cling like a child in the dark to the dogmas of orthodox religion or atheism. Agnosticism respects and celebrates uncertainty and has been doing so since before quantum physics revealed the uncertainty that lies at the very groundwork of being.

The circumstances in which I found the quotes from Huxley are worth noting since they point up the undeserving misapprehension of agnosticism as some subcomponent of atheism.

I came upon the Huxley essay in a book called The Agnostic Reader, a lone nod to agnosticism in an entire yardlong shelf of smug New Atheist polemics at a local Borders. The book’s latest essay dates back to 1949. Time for an agnosticism revival, I say.

Why has agnosticism fallen out of favor? New Atheism offers the glamour of fraudulent rebelliousness, while agnosticism has only the less eye-catching attractions of humility. The willingness to say “I don’t know” is less attention-getting than “I know, I know. I know it all.”

Humility in the face of mystery has been a recurrent theme of mine. I wrote most recently about the problem of consciousness and found myself allied with the agnostic group of philosophers known as the Mysterians, who argue that we are epistemically, flat-out unable to know the nature of consciousness while being within consciousness. I’m reluctant to call agnostics Mysterians, much as I like the proto-punk ballad “96 Tears” by ? and the Mysterians. But I do like that agnosticism, which in fact can be more combative than its image, does have a sort of punk, disruptive, troublemaker side.

I was once called a “troublemaker” by no less than Terry Eagleton, once the wunderkind neo-Marxist post-modernist guru who ruined the minds of several generations of comp lit students and who has now turned into a promoter of a New Religiosity, with books such as Reason, Faith, and Revolution and On Evil.

We had an exchange over a dinner at the Harvard Club after he had given a talk there promoting his new religiosity, which seemed to me just a more mystified version of Aquinas’ uncaused causation, the Supreme Being standing outside of time and space somehow bringing them into being. I asked him over dinner what it meant to stand outside time and space and how such a Supreme Being got there, and he sought refuge in evasive mysticism by asking loftily, “What is time?” To which I replied, “You go first.”

“Troublemaker,” he muttered to the woman sitting next to him. Yes, agnostics are troublemakers!

But I was troubled by the lack of intellectual ferment in the agnostic world. It’s true the works of David Berlinski, most recently The Devil’s Delusion, take on the new atheist science from an agnostic point of view. And recently there was a stir occasioned by Paul Kurtz, the much-admired former editor of the agnostic/atheist publication The Skeptical Inquirer who had taken to the pages of the secular humanist magazine Free Inquiry to attack the “true believer atheists,” whom he called “true unbelievers” for behaving just like religious zealots:

We need to ask: are there fundamentalist “true unbelievers”? Many secular-atheists in twentieth-century totalitarian societies were indeed fundamentalists in the sense that they sought to impose a strict ideological code and willingly used state power and brutal violence against anyone who dissented. Stalinism is the best example of the readiness to punish deviation in the name of “the holy secular doctrine,” which the commissars in the gulags used to enforce obedience. Fortunately, the extremes of this form of doctrinal terror have declined with the end of the cold war.

Nonetheless, there still lingers among some true unbelievers an unflinching conviction toward atheism—God does not exist, period; they are convinced of that! This kind of dogmatic attitude holds that this and only this is true and that anyone who deviates from it is a fool. This insults a great number of reflective believers.

John Dewey, the noted American philosopher, observed that “The aggressive atheist seems to have something in common with traditional superstition. … The exclusive preoccupation of both militant atheism and supernaturalism is with man in isolation from nature.” [A Common Faith]

This argument that some atheists had become “true unbelievers” provoked a war of words (both online and in print) between atheists and agnostics that was valuable in distinguishing the two.

Then the writer John Farrell referred me to the agnosticism blog of John Wilkins, an Australian thinker, which introduced me to the fact there is an ongoing debate between the New Atheists and the Newer Agnostics.* When I e-mailed Wilkins about what the most important points of contention in these debates were, he sent me back this provocative five-point response, which I’ll reprint below with my own annotations:

“For now my objections to the “New” Atheists (who are a vocal subset of the Old Atheists, and who I call Affirmative Atheists) are the same as my objections to organized religion:

1. Too much of the rhetoric and sociality is tribal: Us and Them.”

So true. The verbal vitriol and vituperation that self-proclaimed New Atheists indulge in in the comments section of crusading atheist and Selfish Gene author Richard Dawkins’ blog recently caused Dawkins himself, horrified by the not excessively “bright” mob he’d created, to shut down his comments section. (The concern was attacks on my fellow Templeton Cambridge fellow Chris Mooney who is a pro-science atheist but not an “incompatibilist,” a nonsense term I don’t have the patience to explain but for which they wanted his blood.)

2. [The New Atheism] presumes to know what it cannot. More on this below.

3. As a consequence of 1 and 2, it tries to co-opt Agnosticism as a form of “weak” Atheism. I think people have the right to self-identify as they choose, and I am neither an atheist nor a faith-booster, both charges having been made by atheists (sometimes the same atheists).

Cue James Brown chords: Say it loud! We’re agnostic and proud!

4. Knowability: We are all atheist about some things: Christians are Vishnu-atheists, I am a Thor-atheist, and so on. [Which is why the "are you agnostic about fairies?" rejoinder is just dumb.] But it is a long step from making existence claims about one thing (fairies, Thor) to a general denial of the existence of all possible deities. I do not think the god of, say John Paul II exists. But I cannot speak to the God of Leibniz. No evidence decides that.

Fascinating. He dismisses Catholicism, but he won’t deny outright the arguments of a philosophical believer such as Liebniz. I have been following with interest the argument of neo-Leibniz logical positivist defenders of the existence of God, such as Alvin Plantinga, and his critics, such as John Hick.

5. But does that mean no *possible* evidence could decide it [existence or nonexistence of God]? That’s a much harder argument to make. Huxley thought it was in principle Unknowable, but that’s a side effect of too much German Romanticism in his tea. I can conceive of logically possible states of affairs in which a God is knowable, and I can conceive of cases in which it is certain that no God exists.

Wilkins’ suggestion is that there are really two claims agnosticism is concerned with is important: Whether God exists or not is one. Whether we can know the answer is another. Agnosticism is not for the simple-minded and is not as congenial as atheism and theism are.

The courage to admit we don’t know and may never know what we don’t know is more difficult than saying, sure, we know.

As Errol Morris put it in the conclusion of one his epic multipart New York Times examination of anosognosia—not knowing what we don’t know:

We have “the desire but not the wherewithal to make sense of experience. One might easily forsee that this would lead to unending unmitigated frustration and suffering. But here’s where self-deception [and] anosognosia … step in. We wouldn’t be able to make sense of anything, but we would never be aware of that fact.”

Like I said, it’s complicated. But the world has suffered enough from oversimplifications. The agnostic moment has come.

+++++++++++++++++
*Correction, July 2, 2010: This piece originally referred to John Wilkins as an Australian scientist. He is not a scientist. (Return to the corrected sentence.)

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Ron Rosenbaum is the author of The Shakespeare Wars and Explaining Hitler.

Article URL: http://www.slate.com/id/2258484/

Posted in Apologetics, Science | Leave a comment

Are Exorcisms a Thing of the Past? from Desiring God BlogJohn Piper – A Great Job On This Topic

Are Exorcisms a Thing of the Past?
from Desiring God Blog

(Author: Tyler Kenney)

How are we to wage spiritual warfare today? Should we still cast out demons, like Jesus and his apostles occasionally did?

John Piper addresses this question in today’s Ask Pastor John. (Scroll down to read a transcript.)


The following is an edited transcript of the audio.

Do you believe in casting out demons? How would you go about it?

I do, and I think there is a steady state, normal way to go about it from 2 Timothy 2:24-26. And I think occasionally there is what David Powlison would call an ekballistic form. David doesn’t think that is the normal way to do ministry, and we may or may not see things eye to eye there.

So I would say, occasionally you see a manifestation of demonic power that is so in your face and so possessive and controlling of a person’s life that an extraordinary intervention and exorcism is called for.

I’ve been involved in one in my life—only one. But I’ve read about others and it is much more common on the mission field, of course, where you are moving immediately into places where they are more explicitly demon-driven than we are explicitly demon-driven here.

The steady state, ordinary way of bringing people out of the clutches of the devil is described in 2 Timothy 2 where it says, “Teach with gentleness, correct your opponents in love. God may perhaps grant them to repent and come to a knowledge of the truth and be delivered or escape from the power of the evil one who had taken them captive.” That’s a paraphrase. So clearly in that passage, teaching and love and patience and God’s sovereignty—maybe he’ll intervene—is the normal way that Timothy is being told to free people from the will and the bondage of the devil.

I don’t think in order to be seriously engaged in spiritual warfare (where you are freeing people from the powers of the evil one), you have to do exorcisms week in and week out. You have to be a faithful, loving, humble, and repenting teacher—a lover of people. Satan is a liar and therefore he will not abide truth. He is a murderer, and therefore he will not abide love. So if you are a truth-giver and a deep, self-sacrificing lover, you will win.

That text from Revelation 12:11—”They overcame the devil by the blood of the lamb, for they loved not their lives even unto death”—what does that say? You overcome the devil by the gospel, by believing you are covered by the blood. You overcame by applying and teaching and preaching the blood of Christ, and then by being so sacrificially dedicated to people’s lives that you are willing to die rather than run away from a situation. When that happens, when martyrs covered by the blood loving people happens, Satan is defeated.

SHEL: In Anabaptist history we spoke of water, spirit and blood baptism – that the first two and the third mark the believer. Hopefully you would not have to lay down your life for the kingdom as a Martyr – but when the earlier church father said “the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church” this is a profound spiritual act – in which evil is exposed and one observing this has the potential to be spiritually awakened from the lies of Satan.

So there are lots of ways, at least the three that I’m describing here. This teaching way, this self-sacrificing, gospel way, and this occasional exorcistic way.

Demons are real, Satan is real, and every pastor should do a serious study of the devil and of his ways and of demons, and decide how he is going to deal with that. Because there is an attack on the church in various forms all the time.

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It had occured to me I am not qualified for ministry

Yesterday I was doing odds and ends – working through Monday depression that always comes from giving so much energy to so many on one day. I was full of anxiety and worry. Good things, tough things, human dirt and divinity stuff.

There are so many good things happening at Mercy Church I just don’t want to mess it up.

We have so many great leaders now I am overwhelmed by thankfulness for them.

So again I have these moments of great weaknesses and fear of growing as a leader. It always seems like there are as many obstacles as opportunities in my life and the church. And I often need to repent of overkill with my words – which is awful given that words are also my gift – prophetic and teaching and intercession.

So in all of this I tell the Lord – I am not qualified for ministry. I just am not superman. I can’t be on 100% of the time. I can’t please everyone and also challenge and lead all at once. I just am not able to do this Lord.

I continue on with what I was doing.

Then, an experience of the presence of God for me (not for the church etc.) that I had not had for a while (of this intensity) occurred. The voice of the Lord in a very clear phrase – not a leading – not a general thought-cloud. But a very clear sentence was dropped into my spirit/mind with an almost overwhelming physical sense of presence.

I stopped what I was doing and simply listened.

“The only thing you (shel and Mercy) have going for you is ME – and I AM more than enough.”

In the midst of storms of evil, some of my own saint-sinner making, other of others choices beyond my will, God spoke and placed His hand upon me.

I for a few minutes had to simply live in that moment.

So what started as a day of overwhelming condemnation, self-defeat, Monday-blues, etc. In one phrase the Lord took what my flesh (both the sinful and redeemed), the devil, and others had buried me under –

AND COMPLETELY flipped it and me on it’s head!

A humbling and empowering word of the Holy Spirit. I am not qualified – BUT by the grace and gifting of God.

He is ALL I have going for me.

He is ALL WE (Mercy) have going for us.

AND HE IS M O R E THAN Enough.

The great I AM.

Amen.

Posted in Holy Spirit, Questioning, Top 10, vision, warzone, word! | Leave a comment

God Self-Limits – Good Theology Recognizes This

God’s self-limitations
Posted on August 30, 2010 by Roger

Several posters here seem to me to ignore an important presupposition of classical Arminian theology and of open theism. (I could probably list some other theologies that also affirm God’s self-limitation, but our discussion has been mostly about these.) That presupposition is that, in creation, as in incarnation (with important differences) God limits himself.

All Calvinists that I know affirm some kind of divine self-limitation, although they are much less likely to promote it as a crucial theological idea than, say, open theists. I argue that it functions as a “control datum” for classical Arminians, as well. (Reformed scholar Richard Mueller has found this through his own archeology of Arminius’ theological influences and ideas.)

The reason God is not the author of sin and evil is that he limits his power in relation to creation. By his own choice he is not, in the inimitable words of Baptist theologian E. Frank Tupper, a “do anything, anytime, anywhere kind of God.” He COULD be because he is omnipotent, but he chooses not to be that kind of God.

Why? For the sake of having real, rather than imaginary, relations with human persons. (Perhaps also for the sake of having such relations with other kinds of persons, but we know little of that.) We all believe that, in some way or other, God limited himself in the incarnation. (Whether you are a kenoticist or not you have to believe in some kind of divine self-limitation in the incarnation. Kenoticists just take it farther than, say, two minds or two consciousnesses Christologists.) For example, he could not do miracles in certain times and places due to people’s lack of faith.

The idea of the “openness of God” to new experiences and to grief, etc., was proposed and promoted by Barthian theologian Thomas Torrance in Space, Time and Incarnation. It was actually he, rather than Pinnock or any other open theist, who coined the phrase “openness of God.” (See pp. 74-75 for the entire statement about God’s entering into time with us.) Other non-open theist theologians who espouse a view of God limiting himself in relation to creation are Dallas Willard (see The Divine Conspiracy, pp. 245ff) and the previously mentioned E. Frank Tupper (see A Scandalous Providence: The Jesus Story of the Compassion of God, passim.)

Why do these and many other theologians posit God’s self-limitation in relation to creation? To make coherent belief in genuine personal relationships between God and persons and to avoid divine determinism which inevitably makes God the author of sin and evil.

We don’t have to know all the “ins” and “outs” of God’s self-limitations to believe that he does limit himself and that his self-limitation is the reason for evil in the world. That is, it is the indirect reason but not, of course, the effectual cause. God allows evil without foreordaining it or rendering it certain. Why does he intervene to prevent or stop it sometimes and not other times? Well, we have no way of knowing that anymore than we can know why Jesus could sometimes do miracles and other times could not. The reasons are hidden in God; he has not seen fit to tell us what they are. We know faith sometimes plays a role. Sometimes obedience does. But we can’t know all the reasons.

I, for one, would rather believe God limits his power than believe that God’s power is the ulterior reason for whatever is happening.

For a powerful refutation of meticulous providence see theologian David Bentley Hart’s little book The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami? (Eerdmans, 2005) It’s a powerful critique of any theology that attributes all calamaties to God’s providence. Hart doesn’t quote this adage (paraphrased), but his book is consistent with it: “Nobody should articulate a theology that cannot be spoken standing in front of burning children.” Hart warns against any theology (such as he sees in consistent Calvinism) that makes God (however inadvertently) “morally loathsome.” “[i]f indeed there were a God whose true nature–whose justice and sovereignty–were revealed in the death of a child or the dereliction of a soul or a predestined hell, then it would be no great transgression to think of him as a kind of malevolent or contemptible demiurge, and to hate him, and to deny him worship, and to seek a better God than he.”

The only way to avoid that (logically, in my opinion) is to affirm God’s voluntary self-limitations in relation to creation.

Fortunately, most divine determinists (including most Calvinists and many Lutherans) DO NOT go so far as to attribute sin and evil to God. In fact, most strongly deny that God is the author of sin and evil. The point is, however, that logical consistency would seem to require that within their systems. And we all know someone who has taken it that far.

Calvinists often say that Armianians “can be” Christians by virtue of a “felicitous inconsistency.” Well, I will say the same about Calvinists at this point. Their theology requires, as a “good and necessary consequence,” that God be the author of sin and evil. That they deny he is the author of sin and evil is a felicitous inconsistency. I applaud them for not following the logic of their doctrines of providence and predestination to their natural conclusions. However, I worry that many of the “young, restless, Reformed” people will carry it that far. I have seen it done.

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Why I am not an open theist

SHEL: I have newly discovered Roger E. Olson and I like what I see. I will be reposting more of his stuff. He just gets it right on so many levels. He’s freewill theist (but not an open futurist/theist) and yet honest about the journey.

Why I am not an open theist
Posted on August 29, 2010 by Roger

Someone asked me why I am not an open theist. I respect open theists for their dedication to biblical exegesis and for their determination to emphasize the personal nature of God. I am also attracted to open theist as a solution to the problem of evil. (Which I, personally, do not think Calvinism can solve. Arminianism does a better job in that it does NOT say God foreordained or rendered sin and evil certain. The distinction between God’s antecedent will and God’s consequent will is necessary for any good theodicy.) Most of the leading open theists are my friends and I would love to be with them on this issue. I have been their defender on many occasions.

However, I have the same problem with open theism as with Calvinism when it comes to theology’s normed norm–tradition. The key Calvinist doctrines of unconditional election. limited atonement and irresistible grace were not even thought of until at least Augustine in the fifth century. (And, I still believe, no Christian suggested limited atonement until the ninth century.)

If open theism were true, it seems to me early church fathers such as Irenaeus, who learned the faith under Polycarp who learned it under John the Apostle, would have known of it and taught it. I realize this is not a knock-down, drag-out proof against open theism. However, I’m cautious about embracing doctrinal ideas (or even theologoumena which is what open theism really is) that are so new in terms of church history.

I’m also stuck on Jesus’ prediction/prophecy to Peter that he would deny him three times before the rooster crows. Open theist explanations just don’t convince me yet.

I don’t see any great need to make up my mind about this in some kind of hard and fast way. In fact, I kind of like thinking about it. As I said before, it really doesn’t make any difference to worship or piety.

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“I Want to Know Jesus” from Alliance News by Julie Daube

“I Want to Know Jesus”
from Alliance News by Julie Daube

By Barry Jordan, serving in Indonesia

Every Friday before going to my Team Joshua youth service in Abepura, I stop and have a meal at Pizza Hut. Twenty years in Papua without a Pizza Hut has built up a big vacuum in me that I hope to refill someday. Recently, one of the workers there, Krista, approached the table where I and four of the young people were eating. She asked what church I go to.

I didn’t think she really wanted to know what church I went to any more than John’s disciples really wanted to know where Jesus was sleeping.

Like Jesus, I said, “Come and see,” which, translated into the vernacular, comes out, “Here is my cell number.” In a text message, I told Krista that she looked like she had a burden and asked if she wanted to talk. She wrote back that she had many burdens and would love to talk.

Last Tuesday, on her day off, Krista came to our house. She did have many burdens. Her dad had died when she was eight months old, and her mother sent her to be raised by her grandmother and uncles. She had never really known the love of a mom and dad or the spiritual discipleship that goes with a family. I asked Krista if Patty and I could be her mom and dad. After the hugs and tears, we asked our new daughter what she wanted, and she said, “I want to know Jesus.”

It just doesn’t get any better than that. Praise the Lord with us for the eternal blessing of seeing a lost sheep come to the Shepherd. God is so amazing!

What You Can Do

When you give to the Great Commission Fund, you partner with Alliance field workers, like Barry and Barry Jordan, in sharing the message of salvation with people who need Jesus.

Learn More

Check out Alliance work in Indonesia.

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My Favorite Past Posts On Worship

What is Renewal Worship all About?

Worship and Sex

Posted in "o"rthodoxy, Worship, aesthetics | Leave a comment